Driftwood Cluster X series 3:│moon T7│ЅріzZ T6│Nebula T7│Drewnet T9│

Maya

@driftwood is it really a 24p instead of 23.976?? how this became possible?? this may be a stupid question but if this is true do future hack can be set to 25p?? 24p in reality does it affect audio?? on conversion in 5drgb usually it does if i set 23.976 to 24. do this?

the_cubaner

I upgraded from the old "apocalypse intra" to the new "Moon T7 intra" one hour ago and it looks fantastic! More details, same sharpness, AWESOME! - See the testscreen at the bottom. GH2, ISO 1600

In the next days, I testing some other stuff.

T1000

@driftwood.

What are the main advantages and disadvantages between MoonT7 and DREWnet T9?

driftwood

@Maya There's two variations to try out. One at 24p the other at 23.976. 25p on a 24p setting? Its not a stupid question but within the confines of the ptools we have - its unlikely. Its just a timing trick to round to 24 frames. Syncing with other cams could be a problem, some NLE's may have problems interpretting it - try it out and report back. We already know its fine for bluray.

@the_cubaner Good lill' test - which version of Apocalypse did you use? FYI moon T7 has a better quantisation spread over the Apocalypse settings.

@T1000 None much visibly with the Cluster X Series! It's all dependent on which side of the fence you stand.

Simply put, some people adore Intra for motion and a fresh compressed frame for each frame but it consumes more bitrate than over a greater GOP like 3, 6 or classic 12/15. Long GOP (from Spizz to DREWnet) employ predictive p/b frames to 'sample' along with motion prediction where macroblocks should be reused from the previous frame. This understandably saves on memory.

Modern encoders like that of what is in the GH2 (h264) do a great job of prediction with its rate control and quantisation and can achieve almost identical looking pictures at half the bitrate (e.g. moon T7 uses around 147Mbps on average wherever it can - whereas DREWnet only uses 78Mbps to achieve the same quality. Most people can't tell the difference. But motion is defo better in moon/Intra. Both moon T7 and Drewnet plus all the new Cluster X settings coming are balanced on similar levels to each other but according to their GOP structure. However, Long GOP is definitely more computationaly expensive than moon on the processor - so there's only so far you can push it in the GH2. The greater than GOP the more computations. The lower the GOP the more bitrate expensive. :-) Hope that helps.

Maya

@BurnetRhoades yes u r rite audio usually jumps when u convert 23.976p to 24p so, it must be true that camera might not get a sync audio record with the video. it might loose sync after 120 seconds hopefully. [.025x.1x10 = 40 second = 1 frame] every 40 seconds 23.976p mode drops a frame. but 24p mode doesn't. if the audio is 23.976 and video is 24 it will be on place for around 2 minutes [40x3 = 120]. after 2 minutes gradually the sync will be lost. the audio will be badly placed by the camera if the shot is over 6 minutes. i will sure use 24p mode if i am shooting a film and most shots are set to capture below 1 minute duration. @driftwood yes i understood but 24p is it possible to fix the audio to keep the audio and video sync for atleast 6 minutes??

T1000

@Driftwood Wow awesome! Thanks for all you!

driftwood

@Maya The audio is baked into whatever the frame rate is set in the Cluster X setting. Do your test! Conversion to other frame rates is a different problem.

T1000

@Driftwood @BurnettRhoades I'm a little confused at the 23.98 and 24p talk here. What is the advantage of one over the other? Which one is best suited if my end goal is to project in a movie theater? Is one better for Bluray than the other?

Jim_Simon

@BurnetRhoades

Film has been recording at exactly 24 fps with dual system sound for decades. I don't see how this will be a problem. 1 second of sound lasts 1 second, regardless of the frame rate of the video. (At least, it should.)

Aside from that, I'm accustomed to sync drift. Seems that every DV camera in the world can record at exactly the same rate, but for some reason audio devices vary wildly in their timing.

jeffharriger

Ah, the horror show that is NTSC, 3:2 pulldown, etc! Probably hasn't been a good thread on that since, what, the early DVX100 days...

Jim_Simon

@Maya " if the audio is 23.976"

Audio isn't recorded as fps. The same 1 second of audio will sync perfectly to the same shot on video whether that video is recoded at 23.976, 24 exactly, 29.97 or 59.94.

Jim_Simon

@T1000

The film standard has been 24 fps exactly for a very long time now. Video trying to emulate film in the days of NTSC and CRT televisions came up with 23.976 because it worked with the scanning frequencies of the older CRT sets.

Newer flat panels don't have a lot of the limitations of older CRT sets, and indeed the developers of the ATSC and Blu-ray specifications were foresighted enough to include 24 exact in their specs.

Given the perceptible improvement in motion with 24 fps, I'd recommend using that for something you want to show in a theater.

driftwood

@T1000 Traditionally if youre transferring to film you'll need to get it into 24 frames but many modern digital cinemas support an array of frame rates. Blu Ray supports 23.976 and 24p. Most films on Blu Ray are produced at 23.976p. BluRay 3D only supports 23.976. 23.976 is easy to manage for satellite/TV/etc. To be safe stick with the 23.976 (23.98 rounded) moon T7.

jeffharriger

T1000 - you may be putting the cart before the horse a little, don't start worrying too much unless you're thinking film out (who does that nowadays) or maybe DCP. Have you seen, say, THE MASTER on blu ray? Looks pretty good right? 23.976. * edit: Jim and Nick beat me to it and more informatively

tymeorama

I don't know if I am doing something wrong, but I wanted to test the 24p version. When I use Clipwrap to transfer from 24fps .MTS to .Mov, I get a framerate of 23,976fps with sound. When I use 5DTORGB to convert, I can have 24fps WITHOUT sound but at 23,976fps, I get the sound. The original .mts file is at 24fps... I use MPEG Streamclip to check the framerate. Here are some screenshots of the test. If someone can help? Sorry if my english is not good...

kidgray

Here is a panning test and its very smooth I must say. 24p setup.

driftwood

@tymeorama Please download ptools 3.66d. The two variants of Cluster X moon show on MediaInfo as follows (Ok I used DREWnet on the left to demonstrate standard settings but its the same for moon on standard - see rightmost picture);-

tymeorama

@driftwood: thanks, I'll try asap, just need time to "compile" ptool on Mac... Edit: no changes, still the same problem. I tried with a new clip...

tymeorama

The mts file is seen as 24fps, but I cannot get 24fps with sound with 5DTORGB or Clipwrap. I will try with FCPX

Edit: In FCPX, the original .mts file is seen as 23.98fps, not 24fps... Still searching...

driftwood

Cluster X Series 'Nebula T7' incorporating all the latest findings released shortly.

T1000

@driftwood Thanks a ton! You da man!

matt_gh2

@driftwood That Cluster X DrewNET T9 1080/24 screengrab looks great - quite a bit of detail from foreground to background. Great for documentary work I bet.

@jeffharriger Did somebody say "DVX100"?...damn, I'm not the only one who remembers that one! It was a pretty cool cam. Heard some guys hacked it back in the day, but even unhacked it produced a pretty decent image.

danielvy

Where can i download de latest version of Ptools 3.66d

driftwood

@danielvy https://www.personal-view.com/faqs/gh2-hack/ptool-software

Zaven13

@driftwood. What is the difference between ptools 365d and ptools 366d?

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