RED attacks Nikon now

Vitaliy_Kiselev

A new lawsuit, filed by representatives for cinema camera manufacturer RED, accuses Nikon of illegally using its patented data compression technology in its Nikon Z9 full-frame mirrorless camera.

According to the lawsuit, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California, the plaintiff, Red.com, LLC (RED), is accusing the defendant, Nikon Corporation (Nikon), of patent infringement. Specifically, RED is accusing Nikon of knowingly using technology described in RED’s patents pertaining to ‘highly compress[ed] video data in a visually lossless manner’ in its Nikon’s Z series mirrorless cameras, ‘such as the “Nikon Z9 with Firmware 2.0.”’

Just nice, only in shitty capitalism parasites can live happily for years instead of being in jail.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

Nikon admits 'it knew about RED’s prior lawsuits involving one or more of the Asserted Patents, including Red.com, LLC v. Kinefinity, Inc., 8-21-cv- 00041 (C.D. Cal.); Red.com, Inc. v. Sony Corporation of America et al., 2-16-cv- 00937 (E.D. Tex.); Red.com, Inc. v. Nokia USA Inc. et al., 8-16-cv-00594 (C.D. Cal.); and Red.com, Inc. v. Sony Corporation of America et al., 3-13-cv-00334 (S.D. Cal.). Nikon further admits that it has known of the Asserted Patents at least as of the date of the service of the Complaint.'

Continuing, Nikon says, 'Nikon denies that RED is entitled to any relief in this action and asks the Court to deny any of the relief requested by RED in its Complaint […] RED’s claims for alleged patent infringement fail to state a claim upon which relief can be granted…''

Nikon claims in its answer to RED's suit that RED isn't entitled to injunctive relief because no injury has been established. Nikon continues to say that an injunction would serve the 'public interest.' Nikon also asks the court to enter judgment in its favor and against RED as follows: 'That RED takes nothing and is denied any relief whatsoever; That RED’s claims against Nikon be dismissed in their entirety and with prejudice; That Nikon be awarded the costs incurred in connection with this action…'

Interestingly, Nikon is taking what appears to be a different approach to its rebuttal to the lawsuit, suggesting that RED's patents shouldn't be enforcable. Specifically, Nikon is arguing that because RED had shown off and taken pre-orders for cameras using its compressed Raw technology before applying for one of its key patents it's claiming Nikon infringed upon, RED's claim to the technology is not valid since patents must be applied for before information is made public.

endotoxic

Very aggressive Nikon, I like

RoadsidePicnic

Dont be too eager, they will settle it out of courts before red patents are nulified. Nikon just wants her piece of the cake.

endotoxic

Nikon is bigger than RED and have yeeears of experience with patents and stuff . Thy still make advance photolithography machines not UV but still advanced. They have the horse power to fuck RED if they want to.

RoadsidePicnic

Then the patent is nulified and every other manufacturer launch a product with this feature built in... i really want to believe that they will fuck red, but lets see what happens....

EspenB

For those who need a reminder, the RED’s lawsuit focuses on Nikon’s flagship, which is the Z9, which can shoot compressed raw internally (ProRes RAW and N-RAW).

The jury trial is set for January 23, 2024.

One year from today.

https://ymcinema.com/2022/12/08/red-vs-nikon-jury-trial-is-set-for-january-2024/

RoadsidePicnic

"Last day to amend under Rule 15 November 2022;

Technology tutorial hearing – April 2023;

Markman hearing (examination of evidence) – May 2023;

Last day to hear motions to amend pleadings/add parties – May 2023;

Non-expert discovery cutoff – August 2023;

Expert discovery cutoff – October 2023;

Last day to mediate – December 2023;

Final pretrial conference and MIL hearing – January 2024;

And finally, the Jury trial – January 23, 2024."

Vitaliy_Kiselev

EspenB

1900 days to go.

https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/party?p0=840&iso=20280411T00&year=2028&month=4&day=11&hour=0&min=0&sec=0&msg=RED.com%20RAW%20patents%20expire&ud=2&csz=1

sammy

How is Arri able to record internal Arri raw ?

AndrewReid_EOSHD

Arri raw is uncompressed

EspenB

@sammy

The red patent is basically for an idea of internal >2K res, >23 fps, compressed non-debayered data.

The idea was at the time when most did HD only for a 4K 24 FPS non-debayered data stream with mild lossy compression.

The compression itself is (was) a licensed wavelet compression. This was later changed to a DCT compression (Discrete Cosinus Transform) scheme similar to JPEG/MPEG with the release of the RED KOMODO 6K. (Patents lasts for 20 years.)

There are further RED patents regarding tweaks etc to this basic scheme which uses pre-emphasis and de-emphasis on the bayer data such that subtler nuances survives the compression better.

No-compression RAW is not covered by the patent(s) as I understand it. Also, a partial de-bayer of the RGB data might avoid the patent as well (like BRAW?).

Flakey68

EspenB

@Flakey68

How the f*ck did RED manage to patent other peoples ideas?

Why have none been able to invalidate the patent?

And best of luck to Nikon...

EspenB

https://www.newsshooter.com/2023/04/28/red-patent-lawsuit-against-nikon-dismissed/

"RED patent lawsuit against Nikon dismissed"

Plaintiff Red.com, LLC and Defendants Nikon Corporation and Nikon Inc. hereby stipulate and move pursuant to this joint motion, under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 41(a)(1)(ii), that this action be dismissed without prejudice as to all claims, counterclaims, causes of action, defenses, and parties, with each party bearing their own attorney’s fees and costs.

So either Nikon folded and reached a settlement to pay RED.com. Perhaps unlikely.

Some claims that "N-RAW isn't really RAW" (but working on debayered data).

In any case the RED.com RAW patent is still no invalidated. They can continue to sue other manufacturers.

RoadsidePicnic

SOOOO they settled it outside of the court.... who could imagine...

Plaintiff Red.com, LLC and Defendants Nikon Corporation and Nikon Inc. hereby stipulate and move pursuant to this JOINT MOTION, under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 41(a)(1)(ii), that this action be dismissed without prejudice as to all claims, counterclaims, causes of action, defenses, and parties, with each party bearing their own attorney’s fees and costs.

EspenB

@RoadsidePicnic Well, let's see if Nikon Z8 ships with RAW video...

EspenB

User @Coveted Pixel on YouTube.

This agreement only happened because during discovery, Nikon had to disclose that N-RAW isn't really raw, it is de-bayered before being compressed, so RED's claim (in this particular filing) of their patent on compressing RAW data wouldn't have held up should an actual court case have taken place. Remember Nikon originally stated in their Answer that they were seeking the case to be dismissed WITH prejudice and they wanted legal fees and other damages. So Nikon didn't really "win" this case, because 1) the case being was dismissed without prejudice, which legally leaves other options still open to RED if they choose to pursue a different tack in the future . 2) Nikon had to pay their own legal fees. 3) Nikon had to disclose that N-RAW isn't really RAW. So this ruling has absolutely nothing to do with RED's other patent infringement cases against other brands.

N-RAW is a custom variant of TICO-RAW. So far, IntoPix has been able to avoid any legal problems from RED, even though RED initially vowed to go after them, but did not. (I'll find those sources if you wish) TICO-RAW does have US patents for photo and video codecs. TICO RAW for video, they do list both CFA RAW Video (CFA is Color Filter Array and would be RAW RAW) and Bayer Data Video (already debayered and delivered in HEIF / Jpeg-2000) I'm not sure which of these has been awarded the US Patent, or if the "custom variant" that Nikon is using is patented, but Nikon supplied in their support documents for their second additional defense of non-infringement, the white-paper describing the Method of Compression of Bayer Data - Visually lossless down to 1 bit per pixel. This indicates that each frame is de-bayered prior to final compression. And then there is the TICO RAW compression on top of all of that. BlackMagic Design splits the de-bayering process between the camera and Resolve. RED RAW compresses the full CFA data. This is Central District of California of the US District Court. The case Number is. 8.22-cv-01048-FWS-JDE. Then there are several patents and patents pending belonging to Nikon Japan and Nikon US and IntoPix. Which you would also have to look through. I was concerned about this before spending the ton of money on the Z9 to have my features removed at a later date,. or unable to get a 2nd camera with the same features later on.

But I love working with N-RAW. It isn't quite as flexible as ProRes RAW or B-RAW, but the file sizes are much much easier to handle, and it allows me enough room to do what I need to do, with the color from Nikon I prefer. I miss the having the ability to adjust the ISO in post like I can with the other RAW formats. I would shoot at a base ISO, regardless of whether the image was over and under exposed and adjust the ISO in post to get the correct exposure, and keep the noise profile at the base ISO. With N-RAW, all I have is an "exposure" slider that I can use to some extent, but it doesn't truly change the ISO, it just lowers and raises the exposure, not as lossless, but way better than 10bit 4:2:2

It would be nice if one day, a judge in one of these cases could rule on the "Inequitable Conduct" regarding RED's patent, timing, and application process.

willaim22

"RED attacks Nikon" could refer to a statement or action made by the camera company RED against Nikon, which is also a camera company.

Without further context, it's difficult to say what exactly "RED attacks Nikon" refers to. However, it's worth noting that both RED and Nikon are well-known companies in the photography and videography industries, and they produce high-quality cameras and equipment for professional and amateur use. It's not uncommon for companies to compete with one another, whether through advertising, marketing, or product innovation. It's possible that "RED attacks Nikon" could refer to a competitive move by RED to gain an advantage over Nikon, but without more information, it's impossible to say for certain.

endotoxic

My comment aged well. At least Nikon finally bought the red whole thing lol. It was obvious they won’t accept defeat, so the bought it. With all the lens background and bringing some old lenses recipes and some marketing magic they could make a big hit on a real complete camera systems like Sony, Arri and canon. No one else has cine lenses and sensors. Not even Panasonic nor panavision either, the use red cameras. So… I see big opportunity to make a difference or just take the patent, charge 6 more years of it and wait it to become accessible to public.

sandiesarai

Great! Keep posting.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@endotoxic

May be previous Apple related litigation had been also about buying Red?

endotoxic

Of course!!! But apple does not makes lenses neither have a film background and understand color the way Fuji does.

Buying red for apple was mainly for developing products based on the raw patent. But Fuji film has much better uses for their technology and less investment for making a solid product. Apple was going to learn how to make a camera Fuji already knows.

RoadsidePicnic

So so, they settled it outside of the courts and the pattent will be preserved. Surprise.

endotoxic

Even now with Nikon buying I can safely say that it’s more probable for apple to make a cinema camera to go with its whole future M chips and new editing software sharing raw files with apple ProRes raw and all that. I just see Nikon with an open Japanese smile seeing the cash flow and sucking apple on the process. Maybe sharing that amazing M SoC reduced in size and power for Nikon cameras and making ai pictures live a reality, prompting live chating to your camera while you take a picture and have the ai enhanced result immediately!! Who knows?

Red on the other hand, would made the whole process super frustrating and forcing a lot of things. It’s just the way they are Jannard and the other fucker. For me they are a pair of old school surfers who by luck and cash made it. I’m not saying they didn’t make an effort, just they are two stoners, that’s the way I see it.

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