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Libya: Still fighting for real freedom
  • I'll begin this post with the same small verse I used already:


    В вечер воскресный особо мил
    Хлеб с колбасою ливерной,
    И наплевать, что воюет мир
    Где-то в далекой Ливии.
    После – оливок с десяток штук
    И почивать спокойненько.
    Только, возможно, последний штурм
    Ждет в этот час Полковника.
    Часто ресурсы: вода и нефть,
    Служат причиной зависти.
    Осознавая, что шансов нет,
    Полковник ещё сражается.


    Модно в бесчестии упрекать
    И на чужое зариться –
    Вновь затмевает собой закат
    Алых пожаров зарево.
    Там по приказам крутых персон
    Много уже налётано…
    На пепелище шуршит песок
    Книжными переплетами.
    Но вопреки увереньям СМИ,
    Медлит измены ржа ещё.
    Может быть, в этот вот самый миг
    Полковник ещё сражается.


    Нынче, хоть любят клеймить порок,
    Слишком накладно ссориться.
    Только один против всех, порой,
    Проще, чем против совести.
    Он для цивильного мира дик
    С верой нелепой в истину.
    Он не надеется победить –
    Сколько удастся, выстоять…
    Пусть репутация и чиста,
    Но, закрывая жалюзи,
    Помните, дети шакальих стай,
    Полковник ещё сражается.





    How important is this war?
    Extremely important, because same technique - virtual war, then you never see actual fighters, only actors and free(tm) press, will be used in other countires.
    And after this inside developed countries to control large groups who won't be happy with big salary cuts, no pension money and huge food inflation.






    Please read Qaddafi's Green Book. Download link:

    http://911-truth.net/other-books/Muammar-Qaddafi-Green-Book-Eng.pdf

    The draft UN report on human rights in Libya before the NATO bombings & invasion.

    http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/16session/A-HRC-16-15.pdf

    Library Of Congress Country Study Of Libya
    http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+ly0067)

    http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+ly0069)

    Top 10 Myths In The War Against Libya
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/08/31/the-top-ten-myths-in-the-war-against-libya/







  • 26 Replies sorted by
  • I believe a lot of this, but nonetheless, NATO didn't orchestrate the Arab Spring, an unstable middle east isn't in the west's interest and that undercuts some of the conspiracy theory here. And why are we supposed to be shocked that some Libyans like Gaddafi? Of course, if you want to stay in power, you have to keep large segments of the population happy -- typically the military and police are well taken care of among others.
  • @brianluce
    I suggest you to spend slightly more time on topic :-)

    >Of course, if you want to stay in power, you have to keep large segments of the population happy -- typically the military and police are well taken care of among others

    And this is just lie.
  • The collonel is still in a fight.

    The green book is quit right about some stuff. Its not perfec,t but i can read that someone was wishing democracy become reality for the people, the most nautarl way around.
  • @Vitaliy

    And this is just lie.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    This is not a lie. I have lived for many years in SE Asia. And in those countries, large segments of the population support the crooked political leadership for the simple reason that they're well fed and have motorbike to ride around on. I have observed these things first hand, not from watching videos from left wing Italian journalists and reading conspiracy blogs.

    And the USA's interest in the middle east are security for Israel and viable oil supply. Two goals that are often at odds with one another. Either way, Unstable governments don't support those objectives. We don't really care much about spreading democracy. That's a canard.

  • I have lived for many years in SE Asia. And in those countries, large segments of the population support the crooked political leadership for the simple reason that they're well fed and have motorbike to ride around on. I have observed these things first hand, not from watching videos from left wing Italian journalists and reading conspiracy blogs.

    I am really amazed by your logic sometimes.

    Either way, Unstable governments don't support those objectives.

    This also do not match with reality in Egypt, Libya and Tunisia.
  • "Arab Spring" is a load of crap. It's more like "Islamic Spring." They are morphing from semi secular dictatorships to some form of Islamic Pseudo Democracy dictatorship with one party will rule, kinda like Iran or Malaysia. It's almost like 1979 Iran all over again. That's my take anyway.
  • I can't understand why on Earth if somewhere there is someone you don't like (especially if this "dictator" is sitting on top of oil deposits that you desperately need) you can have a self-acclaimed right to intervene, bomb, kill, privatize somebody's property and justify that by some crappy words about democracy? There is just one answer — you can do it (an you will do it) until someone teaches you a real lesson — ie bombs your cities for all the blood and sufferings that you caused in the world. Is that what the West wants? Do people in the West even realize how far this logic may take them? I
  • @GOODEMPIRE
    I can't understand why on Earth if somewhere there is someone you don't like (especially if this "dictator" is sitting on top of oil deposits that you desperately need) you can have a self-acclaimed right to intervene, bomb, kill, privatize somebody's property and justify that by some crappy words about democracy?
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    Democracy? Who cares about that! We're looking for them WMD's!!!!

    What? No WMD's? Okay, it's for democracy then!

  • Democrazy and Oil come together..
    Hurraayyyy....
  • @brianluce

    GOODEMPIRE has good point.
    Many think that it will continue forever and ever. But it won't :-(
  • BBC:

    Syrian protesters take to the streets in their thousands following Friday prayers, calling for international protection from the security forces.

    How they can be so smart? Anyone knows? :-)

    The BBC's Richard Galpin, near Bani Walid, says the anti-Gaddafi forces had given a briefing in which they said they had had no choice but to respond to the loyalist attacks.

    They said they had made quick progress so far but that they were not engaging in a full military assault as they still wanted to minimise casualties.


    Good example of truly democratic(r) and free(tm) press.
    This is how full scale engagment lead by UK and France special forces with helicopters and bombers support is now called.

    Future report will look as follow:
    Richard Galpin tell us that peace and order is now restored in Bani Walid. Sole survived native citizen is ok, operation on his legs will be performed by best beduin medics after intensive interrogation will be finished in next two weeks. Transparency international checked that he has Coca-cola and US constitution.
  • Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said Friday that ousted Libyan leader Moammar Qaddafi was loved by his people and that the rebellion that toppled him was not a popular uprising.

    "This wasn't a popular uprising," like in other north African countries "where the wind of freedom begins to blow," he told young supporters of his People of Freedom party gathered in Rome.

    "Powerful men decided to give life to a new era by putting out Qaddafi," he said.

    "This wasn't a popular uprising because Qaddafi was loved by his people, as I was able to see when I went to Libya."

    Italy is Libya's former colonial ruler and enjoyed close economic and diplomatic ties with the Qaddafi regime prior to the conflict before joining international efforts against the leader.

    He told party supporters that strengthening the country's position in Libya was "important for oil and gas supplies."




  • I wonder if anyone had been shooting independent stuff in Libya with DSLRs this time. I don't mean The Guardian or Al-Jazeera stringers.
  • @brianluce


    Once we decide something is true (for whatever reason), we often
    make up new reasons for believing it. Consider, for example, a study
    that I ran some years ago. Half my subjects read a report of a study
    that showed that good firefighting was correlated with high scores on
    a measure of risk-taking ability; the other half of the subjects read the
    opposite: they were told of a study that showed that good firefighting
    was negatively correlated with risk-taking ability, that is, that risk takers
    made poor firefighters. Each group was then further subdivided.
    Some people were asked to reflect on what they read, writing down
    reasons for why the study they read about might have gotten the results
    it did; others were simply kept busy with a series of difficult geometrical
    puzzles like those found on an IQ test.
    Then, as social psychologists so often do, I pulled the rug out
    from under my subjects: "Headline, this news just in — the study you
    read about in the first part of the experiment was a fraud. The scientists
    who allegedly studied firefighting actually made their data up!
    What I'd like to know is what you really think — is firefighting really
    correlated with risk taking?"
    Even after I told people that the original study was complete
    rubbish, people in the subgroups who got a chance to reflect (and
    create their own explanations) continued to believe whatever they
    had initially read. In short, if you give someone half a chance to make
    up their own reasons to believe something, they'll take you up on the
    opportunity and start to believe it — even if their original evidence is
    thoroughly discredited. Rational man, if he (or she) existed, would
    only believe what is true, invariably moving from true premises to
    true conclusions. Irrational man, kluged product of evolution that he
    (or she) is, frequently moves in the opposite direction, starting with a
    conclusion and seeking reasons to believe it.



    From The Haphazard Construction of the Human Mind by Gary Marcus
  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev Sat, as I am, 1500 miles away from Libya, and reading many reports from the mainstream press and otherwise... It seems almost like a complete torrent of information. How do I know which is right and wrong? I heard someone say once that you can pick any opinion you like, and if you look hard enough you will always be able find people on the internet supporting it.

    How can any one of us ever know that we aren't living in our very own echo chamber? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_chamber_%28media%29)

    I am actually posing this as a serious question (to which I do not know the answer).
  • >How do I know which is right and wrong? I heard someone say once that you can pick any opinion you like, and if you look hard enough you will always be able find people on the internet supporting it.

    Do not turn deaths on other people into joke, ok?
    And use your mind, please.

    >about echo chamber

    I don't give a fuck about it.
  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev

    Wow, Vitaliy. I don't know what caused the misunderstanding there, but I certainly didn't mean any offence, or to to make any jokes about death.

    Your recent posts on Libya have made me start to question much of the information I see in mainstream media.

    In my head I have very serious questions about how we can trust the validity of our information sources.
  • >Your recent posts on Libya have made me start to question much of the information I see in mainstream media.

    In is interesting why you did not start to question it much much earlier.

    >In my head I have very serious questions about how we can trust the validity of our information sources.

    I suggest you to make some research on this :-)
  • > In is interesting why you did not start to question it much much earlier.

    Which was my point about the Echo Chamber. My preformed views cause me to select and listen to the facts which support my own views? Particularly when these same views are flooded throughout.

    (Here in the UK it appeared that our government did not want to get involved in Libya, but eventually felt that they had to in order to prevent Gaddafi committing atrocities. This is in sharp contrast to when they spoke directly about wanting to attack Iraq and a million people marched though the streets of London in protest. Had the government learned their lessons from Iraq or were we simply better manipulated?)

    Oh, just so I know for the future: Your first reply to me sounded hostile, like I'd offended you. Is it true (in which case, know that I didn't mean to!)? Or is it just difference in our use of language? Sometimes these things are hard to tell when communication is just text.
  • >Which was my point about the Echo Chamber. My preformed views cause me to select and listen to the facts which support my own views? Particularly when these same views are flooded throughout.

    Really, Sam, I do not know how this is related to this topic.
    Try to read and watch something, at least.
    It is not philosophical dispute.

    >but eventually felt that they had to in order to prevent Gaddafi committing atrocities

    I can answer something hard to it, but won't.
    All I can say that your goverment are criminals.

    >Your first reply to me sounded hostile, like I'd offended you. Is it true? Or is it just difference in our use of language? Sometimes these things are hard to tell when communication is just text.

    You did not offend me, you just wrote inappropriate things.
    I think it is not our different use of language, but different understanding about things that are approptiate.


  • > You did not offend me, you just wrote inappropriate things.
    > I think it is not our different use of language, but different understanding about things that are approptiate.

    My apologies. I had not yet watched the videos, nor read this entire thread. In retrospect I can see how my post was inappropiate in this context.
  • @Vitaliy
    If that passage means I'm trusting propagandistic media reports that are not accurate with regards to the situation in Libya, how do you know you're not guilty of the same thing? The news links you posted aren't particularly impressive -- yet you seem to believe every word. Aren't you also potentially guilty of the same mistake? Or do you have other sources? You've supported your claims with media reports so far.
    Also, I'm not sure about what's going on in Libya, however it mirrors the situations in Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, UAE, Jordan, ISRAEL, Saudi Arabia (before the Royal Family started writing checks) and arguably the UK. Some sort of social pathology seems to be moving across the region if not the planet. If you're arguing that the west's lust for oil is behind it all, I'll say it's conspiratorial and not credible because of the scope of these protests which span multiple nations. And as I've already argued, keeping foolish egotistical dictators like Ghaddafi in power isn't good for democracy but it is good for stability. The region is unstable right now because of the turmoil and that alone poses a threat to oil supplies which again cuts against the conspiracy theories.
    Generally though, I don't know enough about the situation to be sure one way or the other, you may turn out to be 100% right in your assessment. Time will tell.
  • @brianluce

    You use same method of debate again and again.
    To be short, make some genaralizations, combine different counties in different periods of time, never going in details and even not reading anything provided.
    I really hope that you believe in all you write.
    At least, in this case, we'll have one who seriously believe in democratic crusade.
  • @brianluce And as I've already argued, keeping foolish egotistical dictators like Ghaddafi in power isn't good for democracy but it is good for stability.

    Let us all take care about democracy in our own backyard. Because if you ever try to fix my democracy (I particularly mean Russia, but China is somewhere near too) be prepared that we come and finally fix yours.
  • @brianluce
    Khaddafi has already got good relations with oil sisters !
    They dont come for oil,they already have good contracts !
    One conspiracy theory is about the role played by Libya in the United Africa Organisation and the way to bring a gold based money for Africa.Lybia is also well known to have strong financial interest in all Africa,more than any other arab country.Remember Khaddafi love to call himself the king of Africa ^^.
    Regarding the democracy,Tripoli will soon be like Kaboul or Baghdad.Each group who wanted the power will bomb here and there, this tribe against another, this muslim sect against another...and children dying,thank you NATO you bring peace..........by the way this will be an interesting situation for Khaddafi.
    One more thing , some research about the next lybian boss Abdel Hakim Belhadj can be useful to understand the new love affair between US and AlQaida,now that Ben Laden is "killed" ,us and djihadist can work together again like in the old time in Afghanistan, the enemy is not Russia this time but just some Arab dictators.
    Finally to quote some libyan i met this summer in Morocco,they found funny to see so many rebels fighting on french tv, because they did not see them in Lybia, they saw AH64 and Tigers helis killed their families and some french specops finish the job....then the rebels and the journalists came...