Personal View site logo
Make sure to join PV Telegram channel! Perfect to keep up with community on your smartphone.
Chinese invasion: TP-Link
  • Recommend to read interview with TP-Link representatives.
    I use their network equipment and it works perfect (it means that I absolutely do not notice it :-) ).
    Plus interviewer is really smart guy, one of the best Russian IT journalists.

    Russian version - http://www.3dnews.ru/offsyanka/612497/

    English translation -
    http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.3dnews.ru%2Foffsyanka%2F612497%2F&langpair=ru%7Cen&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8
  • 64 Replies sorted by
  • chinese reputable ebay sellers, chinese reputable e-commerce sites, chinese reputable brands... what's next?
  • Cars. But based on how long it took Korea to make good cars....it will be a while. :P
  • Chinese already make very good cars, in fact they made much more cars then USA companies :-)
    As for routers and modems. They win competition hands down.
    Same will happen with smartphones.
  • When I talk about cars I don't mean quality, I mean looks. Maybe things have changed in the last couple of years, since I stopped paying attention to automotive news, but when I kept up...the Chinese made cars that made Daewoos look like BMWs.
  • All this "look" is very subjective thing.
    I don't give a shit about car looks.
    I don't want to be like motherfuckers who get out of pricey sports car with awful looking and dumb girl :-)
    I prefer reverse situation.
  • It's not about shitty design, it's about copied design. And most Chinese cars are still not able to pass safety controls of EU. Yes they will get better eventually...I wouldn't compare them to Korean cars, but to Japanese ones. They also copied design and patents from all around the World and their cars were bad. In general, the "Chinese quality" still has a stamp of shitty products.
  • >It's not about shitty design, it's about copied design.

    And that is wrong with it?
    This is a way to learn fast. You copy, then improve, then doing something original.
    As simple as that.

    >And most Chinese cars are still not able to pass safety controls of EU.

    As far as I understand the only reason is that EU is afraid that their car manufacturers will be doomed.
    I hope that you do not think that "independent car safety tests" ever existed.

    >In general, the "Chinese quality" still has a stamp of shitty products.

    Same had been true for Japan.
    All this stamps had been made by rich people for dumb motherfuckers.
    If you are not dumb, you don't give a fuck about them.
  • What's wrong with that? Well it's illegal to start with. It's like copying fashion brands, software, electronics etc. Yes, manufacturers are worried they will be doomed. But not by Chinese inventions (at least not right now). But because they copy the product, steal its patents and produce it for much smaller budget (for obvious reasons).

    Also I don't believe in independent car safety tests. As well as Chinese don't believe in safety rules in general. About a year ago I read about new Chinese cars which didn't even have airbags. No one believes nowadays Chinese cars. Even Chinese don't. Our local automobile company is making big business selling cars in China, they are very popular among middle class.

    Yes, Japanese products had the same stamp. But Chinese will not go the same way. The situation in China is very different. The mentality is different. And the time is different. Instead of Chinese products getting better and better, more and more "used to be" quality companies are outsourcing in China and their product's quality went low. I believe that "Made in China" will never have a stamp of quality product.

    PS: I do care where products I use were built. I don't mind using cheap Chinese products, but I buy them, because they are cheap. Because I wouldn't care much to throw them away if they don't suit me.
  • >As well as Chinese don't believe in safety rules in general. No one believes nowadays Chinese cars. Even Chinese don't.

    This is fucking propaganda.
    Suppy us facts.
    Like statistics of injures and deaths per 1000 cars for each manufacturer.
    So we could check if Chinese cars are in fact coffins on wheels.
    I want just to make slight warning, in our country such statistic proves that you are badly wrong.

    > Our local automobile company is making big business selling cars in China, they are very popular among middle class.

    Middle class is all the same across many countries. Same motherfuckers.
    I like how Ken told about this.
    If you own something fancy and costly it do not make you rich, quite the contrary, it tells that you dumped fucking load of money to other people.
    Same in USSR in late 80s.
    This motherfuckrs could sell their mom to get this fancy old Toyota. Any logical reason?
    It's fucking dandy.
    Well, it continued to be dandy for a while, but after this someone closed their factory or other place they worked and they were fucked.
    It happens that this had been same people who told motherfuckers via TV and press that old Toyotas are dandy.
    How strange is that?

    >Well it's illegal to start with. It's like copying fashion brands, software, electronics etc.

    And that so bad about all this?
    Generally, only one thing. Western countries developer soficticated copyrigh and patent laws to survive.
    Both laws must be dismanted for real progress and replaced by something totally different (and they will be dismanted by other countries during upcoming crysis period).
    As for illegal - it becomes illegal if original owner have international patent (and you can't patent "look" in many countries, you also can't patent algorithms in many countries :-) ) and he uses this patent to prevent making copies that are supplied to his market. Building something according to patent is not illegal, patent gives you right to stop someone and you must prove violation also (this is hard part), it is not automatic.

    >But Chinese will not go the same way. The situation in China is very different

    Having contact with guys who constantly inspect Chinese factories and make orders I can say that it is complete bullshit. Utterly bullshit.
  • >Suppy us facts.

    I would be happy to find some charts. But I don't think there are many yet. You wouldn't find any Chinese cars on streets in my country. There are just tests. It's questionable, if they're really independent, but those results are always the same. e.g. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118651314364590719.html

    >Middle class is all the same across many countries. Same motherfuckers.

    I'm happy to be part of the middle class. It allows me to buy expensive things sometimes, but will not have heart attack in my 50s from stress about my business ;)

    >This motherfuckrs could sell their mom to get this fancy old Toyota. Any logical reason?

    To my knowledge, old Toyotas are still heavily exported to post Soviet countries. There was some news few years ago, when that Russian government wanted to prohibit cars with steering wheel on the right side and there was big protest from Russian taxi drivers claiming that these imported cars are very reliable.

    >This motherfuckrs could sell their mom to get this fancy old Toyota. Any logical reason?...

    Even if I put copyright and patent laws aside, stealing is still stealing and I can't agree that it's fine to do in order to get some real progress. But that's just about point of view I guess.

    >Having contact with guys who constantly inspect Chinese factories and make orders I can say that it is complete bullshit. Utterly bullshit.

    I used to work for various Japanese companies which were using Chinese parts for its production. I also visited those Chinese factories. The quality was horrible, but it was cheap. About 25% of those parts were bad and needed to be threw away. But still it was cheaper, that to produce them in some country, where you have to actually care about workers protection, insurance, pension etc.
  • >http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118651314364590719.html

    This is not facts.
    It is made by AutoReview journal (advertisement only yellow press).
    Sold 100% to major manufacturers.
    Locally they fight Chinese cars with all they can.
    I do not want to say that China make best cars (I don't care about it, really).
    But all this shit is ignoring simple fact that kinetic energy is proportional to mv^2.
    So, if instead of 60km/h you run at 80km/h, your fancy Mercedes could look much worse then cheapest car.

    >To my knowledge, old Toyotas are still heavily exported to post Soviet countries

    It's false. Not anymore :-)
    Most manufacturers make cars locally now :-)

    >stealing is still stealing

    It is not stealing.
    People are just lazy to read definition of "stealing".
    You can't steal something that resides with its owner.
    Its just some perverted logic.
    You can call it "illegal duplication". But this sounds not so nice as stealing, isn't it?
    People can start to suspect that something is fucked up here.

    >I used to work for various Japanese companies which were using Chinese parts for its production. I also visited those Chinese factories. The quality was horrible, but it was cheap.

    Any primers of such companies? What kind of parts?
    You make big generalizations, and that's bad.
    Good factories with very good conditions for workers exists.
    Salary is constantly increasing among all manufacturers.
    Most workers now live in normal apartments inside large houses.
    If you want to find cheap and bad you could do it in any country.
    Same for reverse.
  • The whole "safety" argument is something I think is overrated. Even if a car can't pass current crash test standards....what's the alternative to poor or low income people? Buy a used cheap car....a car that also wouldn't pass current safety standards most likely.

    Safety and emissions standards could freeze at year 2000 levels and we'd be fine. That would also allow car makers to make cheaper cars instead of having to keep building up to the new standards and making cars more expensive because of engineering and build costs to meet new standards.

    A car like the Smart, shouldn't cost over $10k....it should be $6-7k.
  • >The whole "safety" argument is something I think is overrated.

    It is not overrated, mostly it is bullshit.
    Read my remark about kinetic energy.
    It is made to sell you new car.
    And emission standards to force for to buy new car (if you did not lake safety lecture :-) ).
    Same with service parts costs (this is huge business, much more profitable then cars themselfs).
    If they wanted to build really safe cars tey'll make them as proper cars - with steel tubes skeleton, proper seats and proper belts. Look at any rally car. This things are safe.
    Normal cars... they are less dangerous :-)
  • > So, if instead of 60km/h you run at 80km/h, your fancy Mercedes could look much worse then cheapest car.

    If Mercedes from '90 crash with Trabant from '90, which driver has higher chance to go home on his own legs?

    >Most manufacturers make cars locally now :-)

    I'm sorry for being ignorant, but I can't really recall any car brand from post Soviet countries which would be massively exported to non-post Soviet countries. Are these made just in small quantities for locals?

    >It is not stealing.

    I do believe in Intellectual property. I'm not sure about whole patent and copyright question in this case, but I believe, that stealing and idea/design is theft. And making illegal duplicates is in that case stealing.

    >Any primers of such companies? What kind of parts?

    Some major Japanese companies. For instance solar panels.

    >Good factories with very good conditions for workers exists.

    I'm not saying they don't. I'm talking about my experiences and they were surely shocking. One of the companies I was working for had factories both in EU and China. With same machines. With only one exception. Those in China didn't have any safety equipment. Why? Because it was a few bucks cheaper and it was not needed...in China. Minimum protection against chemicals. Super-small flats with common toilet and showers. I wouldn't really call that normal apartments.

    >If you want to find cheap and bad you could do it in any country.

    Not exactly true. It's in fact very difficult to find something cheap produced in my country anymore. All these companies bankrupted and all these things are imported from China nowadays. It has one positive ironic effect though. Things produced in my country are starting to have a "stamp of quality" :) At least for locals...
  • Love rally cars but I don't want to have to take off and put on my steering wheel every time I have to go to work. Plus I'm in too bad a shape to get in my car "Dukes of Hazzard" style. :P
  • >> So, if instead of 60km/h you run at 80km/h, your fancy Mercedes could look much worse then cheapest car.

    >If Mercedes from '90 crash with Trabant from '90, which driver has higher chance to go home on his own legs?

    It depends. If they drive at 100km/h each, both will see god with almost 100% chance :-)
    This is that my remark was about. You can whipe out all progress in safety with 5-7km/h speed increase.


    >>Most manufacturers make cars locally now :-)

    >I'm sorry for being ignorant, but I can't really recall any car brand from post Soviet countries which would be massively exported to non-post Soviet countries. Are these made just in small quantities for locals?

    Again, read carefully. Most manufacturers make cars locally now.
    They do not export cars, they produce them locally. Including Toyota, Ford, Hyundai etc.

    >I do believe in Intellectual property. I'm not sure about whole patent and copyright question in this case, but I believe, that stealing and idea/design is theft. And making illegal duplicates is in that case stealing.

    It is not stealing.
    And stealing "idea/design" is not theft.
    Idea of intellactual property is same as idea of introducing taxes on all your neighbours because you fart and they sniff it. They clearly must pay for such wonderful expirience, isn't it?
    To get money you need to sell something, and this something is your time in service industry.
    You sell "knowledge", but in fact you sell your time spent on learning and thinking.
    So, other people exchange their money to your knowledge to save their time.
    Here come the idea of "intellectual property". So someone couldn't get some "information bits" that you already sold and give it to other people. See the problem?
    You must clearly prosecute that bastard because he told this boy where to shit. You give him this info previously for a dollar (it costed you two pants full of shit to find this place!), so it is your fucking intellectual property. And he duplicated it. Moron. Must be prosecuted.
  • >It depends. If they drive at 100km/h each, both will see god with almost 100% chance :-)

    In 100km/h you might be right. In 50km/h though, just the one in cheap car. The one in Mercedes would probably have to exchange a fender ;)

    >Again, read carefully. Most manufacturers make cars locally now.

    OK, got it wrongly, sorry. There are such factories here as well. They are here because of lower taxes and cheap workers. Most of such produced cars are for export. Also Toyota produced outside of Japan is completely different from a Toyota produced in Japan. Quality wise as well. That's why used Tototas from Japan are being sold so well outside.

    >And stealing "idea/design" is not theft.

    If I make a bike. The bike has got some great innovations which no one introduced before. But because of financial/political reason I cannot make mass production and export it to other countries. Then some other big company buys my product, disassembles it, makes exact copy and puts it to a mass production without paying me a penny. I consider that a theft.

    I believe that's relatively common practice among Chinese companies, if something is not produced in China already. It happened to my friend as well. He's making one relatively successful product. One day, a representative from a big Chinese company came and wanted to buy this product...but in peaces. He declined, because he knew, that half a year later he would find it on market for half price.
  • >Then some other big company buys my product, disassembles it, makes exact copy and puts it to a mass production without paying me a penny. I consider that a theft.

    Nothing wrong with it :-)
    I know that it is sad. But it is life.
    We do not have law that state that we are immortal. Because it'll look as bullshit to everyone.
    But if you use tricky words you can make average motherfucker believe in copyright and patents.
    Why? Because in foundation he could see some remnants of logic (things about selling your time) with bunch of added bullshit.

    As for your mass production example look at this from other side. This guys worked hard, many many motherfuckers. Build factories, teached students who could propertly copy your stuff. Risked getting credits. While you safely invented your stuff. You din't make more work, in fact you did much less. But from your side it looks wrong. From their side it looks like some rich motherfucker prevents progress of human race. And I am with them.
  • Hehehe....Torn about this.....

    On the one hand, I like the idea of inventing something and then getting royalties off that IDEA...

    But then we're HERE because Vitality didn't agree with Panasonic's intellectual property vis-à-vis their firmware. Oh sweet Irony!
  • >On the one hand, I like the idea of inventing something and then getting royalties off that IDEA...

    Yeah good idea.
    How about restricting royalties to average salary of your profession?
    And restricting time frame by using registred documents to prove how much you worked on it?
    Seems fair.

    >Vitality didn't agree with Panasonic's intellectual property vis-à-vis their firmware.

    Generally, this is false.
    We are just using current laws to allow us to do things that we do.
  • Well on that it's possible to see the different point of view. Even with all copyrights and patents aside, I believe that such practice is just wrong. I would never do it.

    Such practice is always for a very short period. Will cheating at school help you with exams? Sure, but you'll not get, what the teacher is saying the next day.

    Will they be able to produce exact copy of the bike? Sure. Will they be able to produce successful successor? Very unlikely. They don't know the background. They don't know what lead the original manufacturer to new inventions. They will make same mistakes as the original manufacturer did while testing the first version. Can you count on the original manufacturer then? No, he bankrupted, because everyone bought the cheap copy. And at the end those copying motherfuckers slowed down the progress of human race ;)
  • >I believe that such practice is just wrong. I would never do it.

    If I'll remove source of your income you'll do much worse things. Like eating other people if you are hungry. :-)

    >Will cheating at school help you with exams? Sure, but you'll not get, what the teacher is saying the next day.

    Good thing in USSR schools was (and still is) that cheating during learning and on exams had been common.
    People had been helping each other. Many helped me and I helped bunch of dumb guys :-)
    Doest it help? Sure. 100%. Because it is life.
    In life we do not write examps with many people looking that we won't use calculator or google.
    In fact, just the opposite is true.
    US advisers still fight "helping" in our schools, teach how bad it is. Good thing is that no one gives a shit about their ideas :-)
    After each implemented "innovation" made to fight "cheating" average graduates level drops.
    Any university teacher could prove it.

    >Will they be able to produce exact copy of the bike? Sure. Will they be able to produce successful successor? Very unlikely.

    Very likely. Read history.
    Japan did the same during starting period, just did not exported it.
    This is human nature. You can't fight nature.
    People learn. Learn fast. They are good at it.
    I think that it can be real differentiator between monkeys and humans.
    Monkeys still obide copyrigh law :-)






  • >If I'll remove source of your income you'll do much worse things. Like eating other people if you are hungry. :-)

    I wouldn't. I have a rice field ;)

    I also wouldn't put Japanese as an example. Japanese are somewhat special in this. Their whole history is based on importing and absorbing different culture. They're very flexible nation in any situation. Look how they became from main enemy the main ally with US. In just a few years, while other nations still fight over injustice in WWII.

    USSR was copying western products in big amounts. Cars, electronics...lens... Even so, I don't see any Russian cars on streets (except few funny ones like not starting Ladas ;)), I don't see any Russian electronics in shops etc. Why is that?
  • >I wouldn't. I have a rice field ;)

    Big one?

    >Their whole history is based on importing and absorbing different culture. They're very flexible nation in any situation.

    I think that ALL nations that survived in evolution game had been "very flexible" and used things from "different cultures". This is that nature is about.

    > Look how they became from main enemy the main ally with US.

    Talking with guys who lived in Japan I can't say so. They are just patient. Waiting for a chance :-)

    >USSR was copying western products in big amounts. Cars, electronics...lens...

    Where you get this bullshit?
    We used some design ideas, but made many unique things and products.
    Generally it had been our "middle class", scientists, that came up with idea that it is good to just copy in some fields, and not copy and learn and do own things. It had been cheaper, and not so much work for them.
    Laziness is quite dangerous thing.
    But at least they had foundation. As competition with capitalism had been very strong, and we did almost all the products that whole capitalist world made, just in few countries.
    SO it is not surprise that many things had been worse.
    If we'll cut rest fo the world from Canada and US (this is about the same size and people number as Socialist countries), I think that you won't like results.

    >Even so, I don't see any Russian cars on streets (except few funny ones like not starting Ladas ;)), I don't see any Russian electronics in shops etc. Why is that?

    US democratic advisers made big work in 90s dismantling manufacturing industry, electronics. Closing about 95% of all development and research facilities. Selling all that they could sell, dismantling and selling again by parts (see famous Drexel Burnham Lambert history doing similar in US).
    My first two computers had been made is USSR (same in our school) :-)
    And I am still using Russian car (while their producer had been destroyed in recent years by bankers backed up by advisors).
    In fact, I may be saw two or three US made cars in recent years on our streets, and none of US produced electronics.
  • China makes high quality products and also defective products. What you get really depends on who you are.

    If you are a small-mid sized company trying to get a better deal in manufacturing watch out, most of the companies that you are going to be dealing with will screw you. Your failure rate will go up, I saw this with a number of pro-audio companies when I was with the industry. Nothing worse then fake components in the supply chain. One company had to recall a few thousand powered spakers because they had fake tantalum capacitors in them. The worse I have ever saw was fake metal film resistors, WTF high quality resistors are cheap to start with!

    Then there is the crazy corruption, no protection on contracts. And your IP will be ripped off.

    Now if you are Apple, or a truly large company its a totally deferent deal. You deal with a company like foxcon which wants a minimum order of half a million units.

    Things will get better. As long a China can do what Japan did, which required japan to regulate the manufacturing industry.